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    Possible grenade alteration.

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    ValThor
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    Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by ValThor on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:15 pm

    As some players can't seem to get the hang of using grenades, and frankly any lag when using one can be fatal, why not replace the grenade with concussion shells or packs. Where you find either one, or a pack of three and can toggle them to replace your normal rifle bullets. (All be it their attack speed would be greatly reduced.) The concussion shells can slow the thing's movement, allowing marines to pursue the monster after it's destroyed doors more easily.
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    willuwontu
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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by willuwontu on Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:37 pm

    That would be a bad idea, the thing needs to be able to run away. grenades slow movement, the whole idea behind grenades was to give a way to slow the thing while allowing the marines to increase their firepower, but not have it be guaranteed that target will be hit thus allowing the thing to escape if the grenade thrower sucks.

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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by ValThor on Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:14 am

    As it stands grenades are entirely hit and miss, and many people don't have the chance to use them at all as one player can simply stumble upon a bundle of two or three grenades. If that person happens to be the thing then he can easily waste, or even assassinate players. Once he's knocked down several doors in a line then players will have no chance of catching him, even with their temporary stim they inflict very little damage, and at this phase of the game they won't be able to trap the thing with doors for the most part.

    In all honesty if that was the idea behind the grenades then it was horribly implemented, because their are too many variables to make it useful, you're banking on the players experience and skill with the item, the thing's skill in dodging, the environment/room setup they're in, AND if either one of them have lag. Giving the Marines a weapon that would guarantee they slow the thing is much better than giving 'Some' of them a 'Chance' Which could easily be fatal for themselves.

    The thing in its monster form is permanently faster than any marine unless they stim. And if a marine stims to use a grenade his chances of hitting the thing can easily waver up or down depending on their and the monster's skill, and if they miss or lag, then what? The thing could easily be handed a free kill simply because a player is unlucky. Also, if the thing is being chased by a marine they can easily swap to a marine form, lock the door behind them and stim away anonymously, something that a good thing player will be able to accomplish with ease.
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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by willuwontu on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:56 am

    If this were implemented though the slowing would have to be dramatically less. Also it would make the slow ammo a prime target for tkers to get and use when they are with people.

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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by Bunnyrabbit:) on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:06 am

    Valthor that is a great idea

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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by EternalToss on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:12 am

    This is all opinion based really, if your good with grenades you wouldnt want the change, but on the other hand if you suck with them its better for you and if your the thing then it sucks. As the thing grenades are useful ive killed 3 people off easily with them.

    Just a note also if your using a grenade the best strategy is to hide behind other marines and wait till the last second to throw it.

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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by ValThor on Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:11 am

    Having a lesser slow would be great, if you had a guarantee of that slow effecting the thing.

    This is not at all opinion based, even if you are good with grenades it still comes down to luck. You seem to be neglecting that entire statement at the start of this entry. I too have killed many things with the grenade, just a few days ago I solo'd the thing with grenades only. That being said they're still flawed and could easily be replaced with an item that would benefit every player, not just the 'Pro' players.

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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by EternalToss on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:14 pm

    So the game requires skill to use one feature. Also if the grenades hit it does deal lots of damage and slow, i wouldn't want them to be replaced for a grenade launcher which only really benefits the marines if it does no damage, but if you add damage then that becomes either really opd or it would not be worth using on a marine still. So if you added in maybe one max in a game that would be ok but i would almost prefer it to have a fair amount of slow that wears off very quickly so that it does give the thing a fair chance to escape or you could do it that it lasts longer but has a less effective slow the main point is that if the thing starts running almost right away that it will escape before another shot can be fired.

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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by ValThor on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:06 pm

    Once again you fail to see the point and skip right to the invalid idea that the only reason the grenades could be replaced by a more useful item is player skill.

    As it is this is the most common occurrence in game when it comes to grenades. These are facts, and have nothing to do with the skill of a player.

    1) A single player hordes 2/3 grenades because they were lucky enough to spawn next to them.
    2) New players find the grenades, either kill themselves learning to use them, waste them, or kill their own team with them. (Gamethrowing.)
    3) During a fight with the thing, grenades are rarely seen or used when you are in a large group or are activated, then thrown AWAY as putting them in the direction of the thing (IE: Where everyone is running) Would be stupid.
    4) Grenades are often held onto and never utilized as there is rarely a situation presented where you can safely use one and not risk killing your team, in most situations players will simply hope to get lucky and lock the thing into a room with them, in which case they don't even need nades.
    5) A player with grenades lasts until the very end of the game, and has a chance to solo the thing, something which got the Flamer nerfed, as it was considerably overpowered and could single handedly take down a thing.

    ______

    Here are some major issues with grenades, also facts, and these have nothing to do with player skill, which was never part of this topic until you brought it up.

    A) Any lag, screen lag or net lag can be a death sentence with these items, and if a player gives them up they risk giving the thing an added advantage.
    B) Their spawn locations are often very close together, which means that many times you'll see only three players holding grenades at any given time, meaning that the entire team is relying on those players either not being the thing, or a tker capable of killing many players without much risk.
    C) Grenade's current slow is NOT useful in most situations as they can quite easily kill any marine who comes within the splash radius too far. This means that any marines chasing the thing, even stimmed, will have to split up, wasting their stim time (Which is the only tool marines have to outrun the thing in its true form) until the grenade has exploded before persuing. If the grenade is a miss, then the grenade has done more harm than good, even if it's used correctly/wisely.

    _______

    What I've suggested is a replacement item which doesn't promote people going 'Lone Wolf', instead of having an item that can literally two hit a thing, you could have an item that's main, even sole use is 'Supporting your team'. The item doesn't have to do any more damage than regular marine bullets, but if it can debuff the thing long enough for the team to catch up to trap, or even just see it then it would do more good than an item that's entirely based on players luck to even get.

    I'm not talking about making a new flamer, I'm talking about making a secondary ammo type, a concussion round which would slow the thing's movement temporarily, and would run out of ammo, meaning that a player would have to be wise about using it.

    _______

    Now, let's look at some of the advantages that the thing has over marines, and see if this would be a reasonable replacement/addition to the game.

    The Thing:
    A) Has every benefit of a normal Marine, including door lock, stim, and item use.
    B) Can change into its true form and immediately become faster, armored, kill a marine in three hits or less if the thing has attacked them in marine form prior.
    C) Has constant knowledge of the living Marine's positions.
    D) Can easily break doors, the only safe escape point for Marines.
    E) Can burrow and stalk Marines.

    The thing can also waste resources that the Marines can collect, nullifying their effects on it to give itself more of an advantage. This means that any benefit the Marines get can be destroyed by The Thing.
    This item could too be used and wasted by The Thing.

    _______

    This item's specs could be as follows, and can be changed for balance issues:
    Attack range equal to that of the Marine's auto rifle (Could be shortened to 3/4ths auto rifle range)
    Temporarily slows the target's movement speed by 20% for 1 second. (A case of three rounds could slow the thing for three seconds, could be lowered to 0.75 or even 0.5)
    Attack damage equal to Marine auto rifle, or reduced to half, even 0 to create a full support item that cannot be used to directly tk.
    A toggle button, say C, for Concuss.

    It would allow players to more readily support each other. (Seeing the thing chasing a player with low health would mean this item could save a life.)
    It would give the marines much more of a chance to cut off the Thing if it hasn't taken the precautions of breaking or weakening doors to attack a group. (Or a thing foolish enough to attack a large group)

    It wouldn't make Marines overpowered, and would be able to be escaped by quick reaction on The Thing's part via changing into a Marine, however if the Marine with the item was wise enough to they'd be able to slow the creature still.

    _______



    My final notes on this are as such:
    Grenades, regardless of player skill, could be replaced with something better. As the grenades are a fan favorite players like yourself don't want to see them gone and defend their existence with the idea that you just have to get better to use them.

    However, just because many players who complain about these items are new to the game doesn't mean they all are. I for one like grenades and have never had trouble using them, I do know though, that they are very luck based, and very hit and miss in their usefulness.

    I support the idea of the main grenade being replaced via this new item, not necessarily gotten rid of though, perhaps players who've gotten enough Marine Points should start out with one free grenade or something like that.

    Please don't bring up player skill as an argument about an item's usefulness as it's not truly useful in discussing the facts about how useful the item physically is in the game.

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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by EternalToss on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:01 am

    I would like to point out that the thing can only remain burrowed for a short amount of time and can only see 1 marine pinged on the map every 30 seconds or so. You also failed to mention how the thing has a control bar currently. Also just in general about all the points into the thing it makes it opd, but thats how the game is designed to work requiring co-operation on the marines part while everyone is paranoid looking for the thing.

    In my last post i also said that the whole thing is a ok idea but grenades should not be removed because a grenade launcher would ONLY benefit marines you could argue that it would have damage, but for the damage it causes its not worth it and the slow that it causes which is 1 shot for 1 second of slow (and im assuming 1 weapon speed) is still not worth it.

    In all fairness if you think of how the game is designed the game is fair in a good game there is usually about 10 marines vs 1 thing if it only takes 3-4 to kill the thing its reasonable. So if you add in something you always must think of what benefits the thing and marines and dont say you can morph and run in marine form if its a fairly large group theres no way you can transform you would just die. Im being reasonable im just looking at the point of view from the thing and marines, yes i think it would be a great weapon, but not if it ruins the game for the thing because he has yet another thing to worry about
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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by willuwontu on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:39 am

    meh i see both your points
    Val,
    Yes it would be nice to have a more noob friendly slowing weapon, i think that it would be nice add it and not replace the nades with it, however as toss pointed out it adds another thing for the thing to worry about. also even though it would do no damage it would be consistently looked for by tkers because it's guaranteed to slow. However that could be helped with by causing limited uses, decreasing spawn ratio compared to nade, like 1 for 2 nades, and making it not guaranteed to hit. How you might ask, well it could be into a slow missile that has a slow acceleration and goes in a straight line and would blow up on contact with the first path blocker it comes across, be it wall, marine, or thing. this would give people a chance to move out of the way if they paid attention and not get hit by it, but if they notice to late it would be going to fast already. this would help out with making it more feasible. also this is a weapon which could be potentially made to be more powerful against marines than the thing thus actually giving the thing a weapon it could use effectively against rines. instead of luring rines into rooms after it and locking, lures and launches missile.

    Toss
    He wants nades to stay he just wants an added weapon, and it would cause less worry for the thing if my version were used.

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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by EternalToss on Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:47 am

    Someone understands me for once! Thats new. But there is my point basically in its whole and you would also need the person who has the grenade launcher to be easily recognizable like how you see the flames when someone has the ft

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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by ValThor on Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:32 am

    Would it be possible to attach the Marauder's weapon to the Marine unit mesh?

    As I said, those stats are subject to change and just a general guideline about the weapon's use. Also I've seen several games go by where the thing simply outruns a marine group, swaps, locks a door, changes back and hides until the marines pass, then burrows to break doors. Just because the thing is down in numbers doesn't mean it's really disadvantaged, it can do many things including inciting paranoia to give itself an upper hand.

    I'd personally compare being the thing as being Rambo.

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    Re: Possible grenade alteration.

    Post by EternalToss on Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:40 am

    Yea, but then if the group sees the thing they know that none of them are the thing they just need to stick together so it's all fair in a way, but you could argue this forever because everything changes from game to game.

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