-The Thing- [Revival]

The Thing is amongst us.

Who is online?

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 1 Guest

None


[ View the whole list ]


Most users ever online was 28 on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:33 pm

Latest topics

» YouTube
Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:05 am by Datasick

» Project Showcase?
Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:00 am by Datasick

» Photography
Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:52 am by Datasick

» Wandering Critters to serve as food for the Thing.
Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:06 am by Probe

» Major Updates?
Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:40 pm by Durzan

» Release 0.281 to 0.286 [Overdue Update]
Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:28 pm by Durzan

» It would be nice if we had people starting lobbies
Sun May 14, 2017 11:23 am by Durzan

» ERROR MESSAGE
Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:06 pm by Durzan


    Medkits and The Thing

    Share
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:54 am

    One of the best ways for a mediocre Thing (such as myself) to replenish health is via medkits. It seems ridiculous that this ability was removed. It is not gamebreaking in any way, as it requires obtaining a medkit while in marine form that you would never be close enough to marines to be seen doing. If you are damaged, the medkits stop as well. It seems ridiculous that this is a change made when the bar for being a good thing is already set so high. Besides the Pro Opts in the lobby (they know who they are) casual players usually get a POUNDING. Its kind of stupid to nerf the only viable strategy for those players, Zerging.

    **Zerging = The act of repeatedly attacking in a short amount of time to whittle the enemy down 1 by 1, little by little.

    Without medkits, you take damage, you take damage. Congratulation wasting the 1 minute 30 seconds of an 8 minute long game trying to regen. Don't give me the "kill the comms" talk either. Marines tend to camp at the comms. PS. Thats like 15% of the game regenerating ONE TIME if you take fatal damage.

    Solutions: I don't mind the idea. But its seriously annoying to have to delete perfectly good medkits when you are extremely low on health, tons of marines to kill, and the clock ticking.

    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:55 am

    Edit: "You can use them while around other marines! Don't be stupid, Probe!" Go play the game. I swear never in a game is deception used. EVER. Unless its full of noobs. EVER. Its stupid because everyone always knows who the killer is.


    _________________
    Current Development: The Flesh Update

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvXQ7hn-sRU
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:31 pm

    Update:

    Over the course of the last couple days I've heard complaints and support for reapplying the medkit use for the Thing. Here is the list of players and I will continue to update as the days go by.

    Petition:

    Grey (Left game temporarily until things are fixed) [Regular Player]
    Nightwing (Noted medkits should be readded for Thing usage) [Unknown]
    JRxFG (Repeatedly stated medkits should be reintroduced for the Thing) [Regular Player]
    FrkShitStorm (Noted The Thing was balanced before and medkit just nerfed it. Voiced that it was 'stupid') [Used to be daily player, now unknown]

    My stance on the subject has shifted. While I think it would be beneficial to re-add the ability to The Thing due to balance reasons, I still believe there could be an alternative solution to the situation. Other ideas or open for discussion here.

    FrkShltStorm
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 10
    Forum Points (FP) : 39
    Forum Rating (FR) : 3
    Join date : 2014-12-13

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by FrkShltStorm on Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:48 pm

    Something needs to be changed for the thing, in its current state it is extremely bad compared to the marines.

    we have - Goggles, Flame, Ping, No meds, Shorter time, etc... it's INSANE!! also hi vic!
    avatar
    Datasick
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 431
    Forum Points (FP) : 976
    Forum Rating (FR) : 12
    Join date : 2014-12-12
    Location : Everywhere

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Datasick on Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:54 pm

    Got to make a review of everything that should be balanced

    A fail montage of me


    Last edited by Datasick on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:12 pm

    There was talk about perhaps an ability that helped The Thing regen faster if it was away from marines for a certain amount of time. The ability would serve as a medpack, basically, without actually taking the marine's supply. The conversation consisted of only a few short sentences but from what I remember the ability I thought Vic was talking about was:

    After <x> amounts of seconds being out of sight range of marines, increase regeneration rate for a short amount of time. However, I thought that it really didn't differ from raising the regen delay time in exchange for more regeneration per second. I tried brainstorming alternative methods of the ability. This is my initial creation:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Purify <Ability Name>
    The Thing purges itself of inferior species' biomass by consumption, greatly increasing its cell regeneration rate. <Tooltip>

    Ability: Consume one nearby body, destroying it in the process. Boost regeneration rate by 6 for 10 seconds. (60 health if uninterrupted.)
    Ability Button: Assets/Textures/btn-ability-zerg-contaminate-color.dds
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What essentially this would allow is for Vic to have his alternative method to healing, while still providing a medkit using aspect to the game. Medkits could previously be available anywhere. Bodies, cannot. To heal as The Thing you must kill players which then allows you to get a slight heal. Why this ability is also notable has to do with healing IN THING FORM. This was not possible besides natural regeneration before (that I am aware of).

    In summary, a variation of the example ability I presented would:

    -Allow medkit usage without draining marines' supply.
    -Make the game more dynamic by giving incentive for marines to drag bodies with them. (To avoid giving Thing heals)
    -Buff The Thing slightly
    -A small change to deception because this would mean you could take some precious time to consume a body, in exchange making it so marines cannot find it. (Therefore you can turn into that color unnoticed)

    In response, post some throwback ideas at, with, or around my idea! :>

    Also, start posting the forums link everywhere. More community = better game!
    avatar
    Vicboy
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 439
    Forum Points (FP) : 790
    Forum Rating (FR) : 7
    Join date : 2012-10-23

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Vicboy on Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:40 pm

    FrkShltStorm wrote:Something needs to be changed for the thing, in its current state it is extremely bad compared to the marines.

    we have - Goggles, Flame, Ping, No meds, Shorter time, etc... it's INSANE!! also hi vic!

    Hi new player, what do you think of the game?
    avatar
    Vicboy
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 439
    Forum Points (FP) : 790
    Forum Rating (FR) : 7
    Join date : 2012-10-23

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Vicboy on Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:01 pm

    Here's the problem: In a game of 14 players, Thing is able to kill 10 Marines without health dropping so low. The last three Marines fight valiantly and two of them managed to drop Thing's health pretty low before dying.

    The Thing's HP regeneration is now (around) 90% slower, the Thing cannot simply hide away for five minutes to fully regenerate. It would take thirty minutes, and that's too damn long. But wait! There's a medkit. Okay, transform into a Marine, use medkit and fully regenerate in 1 minute.

    Then Thing fucks up the last Marine and all the sacrifices were in vain.

    I have a few ideas:

    a) Separate Thing HP from (Thing's) Marine HP. Simple as that. (Actually, now that I think of it, it's not very simple...)

    b) Remove Thing's HP regeneration and only allow it to regenerate as some cocoon with little vision and radar. Will take a 2 minutes to fully regenerate. Encourages the Marines to hunt Thing down, rather than camp.

    c) Allow corpses to heal Thing, regenerating 10% of its health, with channeling costing 4 seconds. This will encourage the Marines to hide the bodies. Maybe if willuwontu comes up with a functional corpse bury feature, we can introduce some new mechanic in the game that influences the players to play a bit smarter.
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:21 am

    I'm not a fan of A) to be honest, but B) and C) make more sense. C) could be implemented without causing too many balance issues. B) sounds pretty cool but if it took 2 minutes, marines could quite easily kill it. Perhaps a shorter time? That way, the thing can attack, take damage and run away to heal. However, marines that know what they are doing can attempt to leave the safety of their shelter to search for the cocoon. 2 minutes almost makes it pointless because you regen faster anyway at the moment.

    If B) was added, I think The Thing should still have SOME regen, like 1 a second (halved). In the event this occurs, the regen delay should be extended to double or triple the current. I simply like the idea of a vulnerable cocoon because if marines get The Thing low on HP currently and the Thing gets away, its REALLY annoying. Instead of being annoying, marines can assume the Thing is going somewhere to take shelter in order to restore health.

    Lol, see this is what I think about while in school. Sorry if my ideas are jumbled, im doing a paper at the same time as this :p

    **Edit, wait, you were unclear on this. I accidentally assumed that once you enter cocoon state, you may not leave cocoon state for a certain amount of time giving the marines a short time period to exploit your weakness. Can you clarify: Did you mean you can regen while cocooned and leave cocoon at any time?


    _________________
    Current Development: The Flesh Update

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvXQ7hn-sRU
    avatar
    Vicboy
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 439
    Forum Points (FP) : 790
    Forum Rating (FR) : 7
    Join date : 2012-10-23

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Vicboy on Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:46 am

    Yep, you can leave anytime. But C seems nicer.
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:33 am

    A, in my opinion, should just be discarded.

    B has some potential. I think it would be a good idea to have the Thing able to take damage and then go hide for a bit to regenerate. You're right about the incentive to search for the Thing. This would make the game more dynamic, I would think, as a Thing on low health who barely escaped is guaranteed to attempt to hide somewhere and cocoon. Marines may then explore different areas in an attempt to cancel The Thing's cocoon leading to another 2 minute cooldown period. This may also prompt marines to split up in order to find the Thing faster before he regens.

    There are two variables that come with this.

    1) How long would cocoon last and what would the regeneration rate be per second?
    2) Would cocoon take extra damage? (So if discovered quickly [marine incentive] The Thing could potentially be punished for cocooning in a stupid area.)

    As a suggestion for what a cocoon could look like, Enlarged Baneling Cocoon?
    http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/1/19/Baneling_Cocoon.png

    Overall, this would be a big change to the game so if it is considered it should not be taken as a light decision.

    C)

    C is very simple, clean and probably easier from the development side. It essentially recreates the effects of the medkit while making bodies more useful. Marines could hide them, (Perhaps nades or flame could burn them?) and The Thing can use them to heal. The main question I'm thinking of:

    Can this only be used in Thing form? Or can the Thing in marine form pick up a body and consume it while holding it?


    _________________
    Current Development: The Flesh Update

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvXQ7hn-sRU
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:37 am

    Vicboy wrote:Here's the problem: In a game of 14 players, Thing is able to kill 10 Marines without health dropping so low. The last three Marines fight valiantly and two of them managed to drop Thing's health pretty low before dying.

    The Thing's HP regeneration is now (around) 90% slower, the Thing cannot simply hide away for five minutes to fully regenerate. It would take thirty minutes, and that's too damn long. But wait! There's a medkit. Okay, transform into a Marine, use medkit and fully regenerate in 1 minute.

    Then Thing fucks up the last Marine and all the sacrifices were in vain.

    "Thing is able to kill 10 Marines without health dropping so low."

    Where was this number pulled from? From how many games? In a game of 14 players, I haven't seen a thing win ever since the latest updates unless marines are very nooby or the thing is very good. If 10 marines can't drop Thing's health low enough, they are the ones doing something wrong considering recent buffs marines got (e.g: Goggles + Armor).

    "The Thing's HP regeneration is now (around) 90% slower, the Thing cannot simply hide away for five minutes to fully regenerate."

    I find the logic behind this retarded. Lower HP regeneration promotes Thing hiding even more because A) They don't want to die B) Lower HP marine joining the group is way more suspicious.

    Also, combine that with medkit nerf and shorter timer, it's pretty damn hard to win as the Thing even with noobier marines.

    Thing's ability to hide away has already been nerfed by the goggles. Regeneration reduction has just messed the game up.

    "Okay, transform into a Marine, use medkit and fully regenerate in 1 minute."

    It should be the marines' jobs to secure or hide the medkits. There are way more marines than the Thing. The only reason why there are so many medkits lying around is because there are so many new items added to the game.

    Although medkits don't need a nerf, if we were to nerf it in your direction, we should reduce the number of its spawn not remove the Thing's ability to use it unless they are near marines which is suicidal.
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:52 am

    Armor + Flamethrower

    Why is this even a thing? The moment armor was even suggested, I said that if you can use flamethrower while wearing armor, it will be retardedly OP.

    When I picked up both items, I could literally tank the Thing solo when he was not quite full health which is a rare sight considering all the regen nerfs.

    Also, notice that I'm talking 'solo'. This is the most imba thing to face against a group because usually you want to take out the flamer first but if they take 8 hits it's a flat out loss for the you.

    The balance on this game has been officially demolished.
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:58 am

    If we want to nitpick, its true. The Thing can not take on more than 3 experienced marines at the moment. Against 4 experienced marines you will usually be forced down to 25% HP in exchange for 3 hits on (x) number of marines. The nerfed regeneration therefore makes the Thing unable to attack for a long while. (Scenario on assumption of no 'lock isolation' tactics.)

    Overall, Pandemonium basically covered the whole argument for medkits being usable by the Thing. It only seems logical to give the Thing a regeneration buff.

    HOWEVER, which one?

    The alternatives being brainstormed could very easily replace the medkits. But the medkits are always an option to re-introduce. In essence, Vic hasn't made clear if he just wants to adjust the balance of the game or if he wants to create a different environment. If we focus purely on balance, medkits should probably be re-introduced. If we look towards a different environment, an alternative, then let the brainstorming continue.

    Remember, the medkits being nerfed means something needs to be buffed. We just need to figure that out now. So Vic... its up to you.

    Medkits, Alternatives, or a variation of both? (Assuming something needs to be buffed)


    _________________
    Current Development: The Flesh Update

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvXQ7hn-sRU
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:02 am

    Vicboy wrote:b) Remove Thing's HP regeneration and only allow it to regenerate as some cocoon with little vision and radar. Will take a 2 minutes to fully regenerate. Encourages the Marines to hunt Thing down, rather than camp.

    Thing must having to hide away from marines to heal seems counter-intuitive to the whole 'deception' strategy and only promotes Thing fagging around more. This idea directly counters the medkit nerf.

    However, if this idea was to be seriously implemented, the cocoon regeneration should have a delay before it starts and cocoon ability should have considerable cool-down. This is to prevent the Thing from simply moving around popping back and forth from cocoon trolling the marines. It will also give actual penalty when marines find the cocoon.
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:06 am

    The Riot Shield + Flamethrower really isn't OP except arguably on the EVAC. You just need to play and learn around it.

    The Tower (Combined both items) is too slow to ever catch up to the Thing. However, if the Thing engages, it is actually suicide (I've tested it and put a video in another subforum).

    The way you play against the Tower is by going into marine mode and shooting it to death. If other marines are there, you throw them away from the tower, you pick them off, or focus on them. If it is only the Tower (by you killing the others or by them just being stupid and getting isolated) you use grenades, molotovs and shoot them until you can finish them off.

    The only problem arises with the nerf to regeneration. Sure, you can pick marines off, sure you can whittle them down. But it takes too long to regenerate health to kill the Tower and the other marines in one swift blow. Which is why this discussion is taking place.

    Regeneration needs reworking. The Tower is not OP, you just need to learn not to engage it directly. Its similar to facing mech on ladder. Exploit its mobility.

    While we're talking about this though I should voice that I really wouldn't mind if flamethrowers had a slightly less amount of fuel. It takes so long to reduce the fuel level that you have to face the flamethrower like 4-5 times before they run out which is kind of retarded considering you then have to run into flamethrower and other marines 4-5 times in a 10 minute long game.


    _________________
    Current Development: The Flesh Update

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvXQ7hn-sRU
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:08 am

    Which brings us back to regeneration lol

    By the way, in case you are new to the game (Kappa), deception hasn't exactly been the strongest attribute of the game. Every semi-experienced player ALWAYS knows who the Thing is, no matter what. Occasionally you will get an opportunity but its so rare and risky that its pretty pointless to be building the game around it.

    The cocoon would have a decently long cooldown yes, and therefore be punished if the cocoon would be found due to having to wait for the cooldown to finish to begin healing again.
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:29 am

    One of the main problems we constantly had with this game was camping. It is boring yet too effective. Many changes were made to the game to discourage camping and most of them failed except the buildings idea.

    Even if you look at Vic's cocoon idea, the whole idea evolves around marines chasing the Thing.

    The Tower reinforces camping far more than before (Low mobility + Tanky + Extra Damage). Unless marines are nooby/stupid enough to chase the Thing, there is really no value for marines to chase the Thing mainly due to Thing's high mobility. There is no real 'skill' behind the Tower. For example, when grenades were the OPest shit, you still had to aim. For the Tower, you simply press one button.

    Shooting the Tower as a marine is unrealistic as using the medkit around marines as the Thing. If you want to argue that it's balanced you might as well make a case on how medkits are perfectly fine right now.

    Your argument basically claims that Tower is not OP under the assumption that regeneration is fixed. Currently, it's not fixed and hence Tower is 'currently' OP. End of story.

    "However, if the Thing engages, it is actually suicide (I've tested it and put a video in another subforum)."

    This alone just shows the stupidity of the Tower. Facing marines as a group is already a difficult task and most you can do is use isolation technique which is not enough when battling the short timer and slow regeneration. The fact that you can't confront a single marine directly makes me not want to play the game as the Thing.
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:36 am

    "..deception hasn't exactly been the strongest attribute of the game. Every semi-experienced player ALWAYS knows who the Thing is, no matter what."

    No shit. But it's an aspect Vic wants to bring back and I'm making a point on how his changes are doing the exact opposite of what he wishes to achieve.

    The key problem is how Vic wants to promote active play styles from marines where they would hunt and chase down the Thing. However, if you want to win, it's a retarded idea for marines. The changes he's bringing is supposed to support/promote active marine styles but it's doing the opposite.

    The Tower I doubt I need to talk more about. Even look at the goggles. It's better to use it passively than actively. Realistically speaking, you stand far better chance sticking with the group acting as the Thing spotter than personally chasing down the Thing.

    We need more items that promotes far more active style than what we have now. Everything is reliant on the Thing making the first move. We need something that makes it viable for marines to make the first move.
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:43 am

    Fair points.

    Personally, I don't mind having one marine stronger than the others. Means I have to get crafty and play very strategically. For example, bait the Tower and 2 marines out the door, burrow charge under them, morph and lock very quickly.

    Hard, but once mastered gives some really awesome moments in game with the other 2 marines left behind. The only issue I've ever encountered with the Tower is if it has 2 nades as well. It gets you low on health so you run, only to have it drop its items and then stim after you immediately following you with 2 nades lol. 25% health with 2 nades = really bad aim or else you die.

    Cross those fingers! :p

    There's a couple issues that need to be addressed, but so far I've found no issue with the Tower if you know what you're doing. I just pity the noobs who play their first time as thing and believe they can crush the Tower. lol

    In terms of deception, the cocoon would, I agree, most likely detract from the end goal. If deception is the way we want to move the game, its a bad idea.

    Setting aside the Tower, what is your proposed solution to buffing the Thing. Re-introducing medkits? People were complaining the Thing was underpowered BEFORE that happened. If medkits were usable, what do you suggest we do to buff the Thing? (Marines in general, responses ignoring Tower based answers plz)
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:49 am

    There's not tons of options for marines to make the first move. The game is designed to have marines survive until evac arrives. There are no objectives required to win other than going to comms, repairing and sitting there.

    We could discuss how to make the game swing towards favouring deception and active player more in another subforum but at the moment we need to focus on the main issue within this thread:

    Should medkits be re-introduced or have an alternative put in place?


    _________________
    Current Development: The Flesh Update

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvXQ7hn-sRU
    avatar
    Datasick
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 431
    Forum Points (FP) : 976
    Forum Rating (FR) : 12
    Join date : 2014-12-12
    Location : Everywhere

    Re

    Post by Datasick on Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:56 am

    Pandemonium wrote:Armor + Flamethrower

    Why is this even a thing? The moment armor was even suggested, I said that if you can use flamethrower while wearing armor, it will be retardedly OP.

    I just made a post about this and it must had been lost in cyberspace, In some cases the riot shield and flame combo can be worked around and other times it means you are going to be burnt to a crisp. It really should be one or the other and the same goes with the infrared cheap goggles.
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:59 am

    Yah, there are always those situations in which you get locked or trapped and the Tower ends up being there and you mise well just leave cuz gg. In the moment you get trapped and the Tower is there, gg. Its really important to kill doors for this reason (Though that takes up time)
    avatar
    Datasick
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 431
    Forum Points (FP) : 976
    Forum Rating (FR) : 12
    Join date : 2014-12-12
    Location : Everywhere

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Datasick on Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:17 am

    Probe wrote:Its really important to kill doors for this reason (Though that takes up time)

    Om, doors do not bite me in the ass tho Razz
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:25 am

    Datasick wrote:
    Probe wrote:Its really important to kill doors for this reason (Though that takes up time)

    Om, doors do not bite me in the ass tho Razz

    omg lucky bastard I ALWAYS die to some guy locking me while im being chased by Tower. Its like a curse lol
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:59 am

    Probe wrote:Setting aside the Tower, what is your proposed solution to buffing the Thing. Re-introducing medkits? People were complaining the Thing was underpowered BEFORE that happened. If medkits were usable, what do you suggest we do to buff the Thing? (Marines in general, responses ignoring Tower based answers plz)

    Re-introduction of medkits is a must as its removal doesn't make common sense (what prevents it from using it outside of marines?) and it also upsets the balance.

    The buff that Thing needs is quite simple. It's not some brand new skill or mechanic. All you need to do is buff the Thing's regeneration and its health. Not to the same degree as the past, but higher than now.

    The recent changes to the Thing's health - # of HP correlates to # of players - ignores that fact that weapons such as flamethrower and grenades do set number of damage. Therefore, we just have to lift the Thing's base health a little bit higher and change marine's buffs.
    avatar
    Datasick
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 431
    Forum Points (FP) : 976
    Forum Rating (FR) : 12
    Join date : 2014-12-12
    Location : Everywhere

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Datasick on Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:12 am

    Datasick wrote:
    Probe wrote:Its really important to kill doors for this reason (Though that takes up time)

    Om, doors do not bite me in the ass tho Razz

    You know.. what I take that back, marines sometimes do beat me to a door, but it is probably because the situation is out of my control, at some points like that I wish I had the old throw before the timer was nerfed.

    Right about now.. I don't know if I should talk about whats wrong with the new items, or if it's exactly what I wanted, which is more difficulty. On the other forums I posted here and there about how the marines were too easy to kill and that the things health needed to handicapped to match the thing players skill, if anything, I would like at least more time. I know for a fact that more added time for me would void most of the struggles I have now and unlike before I am no longer just able to rampage in and take on huge swarms of marines, I actually have to plan a lot more.. I have some adaptation to work on ATM for the thing tho I guess.

    and hi Pande, how goes the cortex trolling?
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:55 am

    So lets recap:

    We want

    -Better regen or maximum health

    -Items to be reworked to not be OP (Such as Tower)

    -Medkits re-introduced

    Is that right or am I just misunderstanding you guys?

    In all honesty, The Thing used to win every game if he knew what he was doing. Every Game. Now I would estimate the Thing win percentage is somewhere around 30% for Thing, 70% for marines. If we buff it too much we'll end up with 90% win ratio for Thing again.



    _________________
    Current Development: The Flesh Update

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvXQ7hn-sRU
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:19 am

    Easiest Thing buffs:

    - Better regen + max health
    - Change back to 3-hit-kill marines
    -*reintroduce medkits

    Problem Items + Fix:

    - Armor: Should be unable to pick up armor in combination with flamethrower
    - Goggles: Needs a visual indicator that a marine possesses goggles

    Can someone clarify for me whether only the wearer of the goggles can see the Thing or goggles reveal the Thing for everyone near by? Last time I faced a group with goggles I was shot by everyone.
    avatar
    Datasick
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 431
    Forum Points (FP) : 976
    Forum Rating (FR) : 12
    Join date : 2014-12-12
    Location : Everywhere

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Datasick on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:26 am

    If I were to play as the thing on my laptop right now and opt with a full lobby, I would want the infrared goggles, the riot shield, and the flamethrower to be held by different people and be fair and that is the solution to this, it's either one or the other.. not all 3.. not a 2 item combo.. just 1 flamethrower being able to be held or a riot shield or even those damm goggles.

    Case closed for the item combo nerf. Now on to the medkit situation.
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:31 am

    Clarification: The Thing, when revealed by goggles is able to be seen by everyone. People have taken to calling them a 'spotter' so I'm rolling with it.

    I wouldn't mind an indicator someone has goggles, but I'm not sure what you would do for it, unless you wanted the goggles to float above their head, similar to the oracle's revelation.

    I'm going to abstain from the Tower argument. I still think you can quite easily work around it, but if the player base disagrees, there's not much to be done except listen to the community. If enough people think its OP, I'm all for nerfing it. If making it so you can't pick 2+ of the 3 unique items up is the only way to nerf it, so be it. HOWEVER, if this happens there must be a visual indicator for the goggles to maintain a consistency.

    3 hit-kill marines. I loved that so much. But its unrealistic because molotovs have been added and they are too easy to use on small spaces like doors to prevent marines from moving fast enough to escape. Therefore, its not really possible without making The Thing OP. Better regen + max health I can always get behind. Medkits as well.

    All in all, you seem to have me convinced.

    I support:

    Regen and Health

    Medkits
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:34 am

    "3 hit-kill marines. I loved that so much. But its unrealistic because molotovs have been added and they are too easy to use on small spaces like doors to prevent marines from moving fast enough to escape. Therefore, its not really possible without making The Thing OP. Better regen + max health I can always get behind. Medkits as well."

    3 hit-kill marines does not make Thing OP and molotov has no influence over it. In fact, molotov causes 3 hit-kill because the 4th hit only needs 1 more hp. If a marine is damaged even 1 health by the fire, he turns into 3 shots. It was changed from 3-hit to 4-hit for previous balance reasons and so I'm arguing we can undo it as a balancing measure.
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:38 am

    "Clarification: The Thing, when revealed by goggles is able to be seen by everyone."

    Now I can make my argument. Goggles are OP as fuck. Similar to the Tower, goggles heavily support camping strategy. If you camp in a group and just have the spotter patrolling at the front, they are literally untouchable until the timer is finished.

    I had a game in Liberty where it was a fully lobby with most marines knowing what they were doing. I had to face the Tower combo + spotter and all the marines camping. Even with isolation technique and using all the grenades I could find, I could literally only kill two nooblets before being brutally crushed by the marines.

    The new changes (armor and goggles) have definitely not been clearly thought through and are too powerful.

    Regarding goggles, I suggest that they be removed entirely and be replaced by a different item that fulfills its original purpose: chasing/hunting Thing.

    An item used for hunting the Thing needs two things: mobility reduction and vision. I would suggest a new weapon instead of passives such as goggles that basically ensnares the Thing reducing its movement speed and revealing it for certain amount of time.
    avatar
    Datasick
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 431
    Forum Points (FP) : 976
    Forum Rating (FR) : 12
    Join date : 2014-12-12
    Location : Everywhere

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Datasick on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:53 am

    Pandemonium wrote:I suggest that they be removed entirely and be replaced by a different item that fulfills its original purpose: chasing/hunting Thing.

    An item used for hunting the Thing needs two things: mobility reduction and vision. I would suggest a new weapon instead of passives such as goggles that basically ensnares the Thing reducing its movement speed and revealing it for certain amount of time.

    Meh, It does weigh heavy on games ATM, but idk, maybe it should give the things location on the mini-map instead of being able to see the units visibility. I do like the concept tho, I think we should keep it.
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:04 am

    Datasick wrote:Meh, It does weigh heavy on games ATM, but idk, maybe it should give the things location on the mini-map instead of being able to see the units visibility. I do like the concept tho, I think we should keep it.

    It doesn't have to be removed but currently it's too powerful.

    If it were to be changed:

    - Only the user can detect the Thing
    - Similar to Thing's ping, shows the user Thing's location every now and then (does not ping when Thing is in marine form).

    To begin with, how the hell can marines around also detect the Thing unless they are wearing the goggles themselves? It should function only for the user alone. Hence the new meta would be to yield goggles to more experienced players with grenades to chase and finish the Thing.


    Last edited by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:05 am

    Oh god, please please no movement reduction weapon. Its literally THE most annoying thing you can do to the Thing while they are trying to get away from a flamer or grenadier.

    Having The Thing's location on the minimap would be great as it makes marines want to go kill it thus leading to moving around and accidental splitting off from one another. Only one person should have it though definitely. It would suck if everyone knew the location of the thing.


    Last edited by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total


    _________________
    Current Development: The Flesh Update

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvXQ7hn-sRU
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:12 am

    Probe wrote:Oh god, please please no movement reduction weapon. Its literally THE most annoying thing you can do to the Thing while they are trying to get away from a flamer or grenadier.

    That is why it should be a consumable/limited weapon used to 'finish' the Thing when marines have already fought a valiant fight tying back to Vic's idea.

    Vic wanted to lower regeneration and remove medkit use because even when marines sacrificed themselves to kill the Thing, Thing simply ditch and heal and fuck up the remaining marines.

    An ensnaring weapon will be the finishing blow and an weapon you have to bait out earlier on similar to flame.

    If you can work around the Tower, I don't see why you are complaining.
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:21 am

    "Ensnare Gun"

    I will give you an official idea on how it would work out. Basically the gun is a one time use weapon that slows and reveals the Thing making it a very dangerous weapon against the Thing. At first, it sounds hella imba and counterproductive to our balance issue.

    However, it will be a medium range charge weapon. In order to shoot, it will need to target and lock on to the Thing for several seconds. Therefore, the Thing can simply run out of its range or throw the marine away to cancel the lock down preventing the gun from shooting.

    My reasoning behind this weapon is with under the assumption that Thing receives previously mentioned buffs (regen, health, 3 hit) and marine's weapons are nerfed from current state (no special weapons combo + fix/remove goggles).

    This will give marines a realistic chance to shutdown Thing but if it fails the first time, the table is heavily turned against the marines. The gun will also be able to target doors and marines allowing the Thing to steal and waste the weapon before it can be used similar to the flame.
    avatar
    Probe
    Developer
    Developer

    Posts : 472
    Forum Points (FP) : 1243
    Forum Rating (FR) : 24
    Join date : 2014-11-27

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Probe on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:41 am

    Pandemonium wrote:"Ensnare Gun"

    This will give marines a realistic chance to shutdown Thing but if it fails the first time, the table is heavily turned against the marines.

    So you want the tide of the whole battlefield to be reliant on one single item that some randy cadet could pick up and waste. Seems legit.

    And this would be totally counter productive. In a game of 14 players, and 8 in a group together all you have to do is use a stupid weapon and gg. Have fun fighting 8 marines with lowered speed, also giving them enough time to potentially lock you. Instead of going out and searching for the Thing, all you end up doing is sitting and waiting for the Thing to come to you (camping) and overextend itself. The moment it overextends, use the weapon and game over.

    The ONLY way I can see this ever working is if the gun requires a long-ass time to lock on. That way, the thing has plenty of heads up and doesn't get killed at the start of the game by a big group of marines with fresh items that just spawned all over the map, none used. And even then its pointless because if the thing escapes one time the gun is erased from history. It mise well have never existed.
    avatar
    Pandemonium
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 41
    Forum Points (FP) : 114
    Forum Rating (FR) : 1
    Join date : 2012-12-24

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Pandemonium on Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:23 pm

    Probe wrote:So you want the tide of the whole battlefield to be reliant on one single item that some randy cadet could pick up and waste. Seems legit.

    And this would be totally counter productive. In a game of 14 players, and 8 in a group together all you have to do is use a stupid weapon and gg. Have fun fighting 8 marines with lowered speed, also giving them enough time to potentially lock you. Instead of going out and searching for the Thing, all you end up doing is sitting and waiting for the Thing to come to you (camping) and overextend itself. The moment it overextends, use the weapon and game over.

    The ONLY way I can see this ever working is if the gun requires a long-ass time to lock on. That way, the thing has plenty of heads up and doesn't get killed at the start of the game by a big group of marines with fresh items that just spawned all over the map, none used. And even then its pointless because if the thing escapes one time the gun is erased from history. It mise well have never existed.

    "So you want the tide of the whole battlefield to be reliant on one single item that some randy cadet could pick up and waste. Seems legit."

    No. The item alone will do nothing but slow and reveal the Thing. It has to be used in combination with existing weapons to kill the Thing. It is merely used as a tool to prevent Thing from barely escaping with 10% of its health left and fagging in the corner with a medkit healing. You speak as some randy cadet can't pick up and waste flame either? Or grenades? Or molotovs?

    "And this would be totally counter productive. In a game of 14 players, and 8 in a group together all you have to do is use a stupid weapon and gg."

    Hitting with it is a challenge as Thing can dodge it by simply running from its range or throwing the marine charging the weapon. When the marine is aiming at the thing, it cannot move. The weapon must charge before it can shoot. Also you don't really get a game of 14 players often to begin with due to drop in the game's popularity.

    "Have fun fighting 8 marines with lowered speed, also giving them enough time to potentially lock you."

    Marines always have the potential to lock you depending on how you play. Where is that confidence you had to deal with the Tower? Why don't you find a way to 'get around it'? I'm sure you would manage.

    "Instead of going out and searching for the Thing, all you end up doing is sitting and waiting for the Thing to come to you (camping) and overextend itself. The moment it overextends, use the weapon and game over."

    Sitting and shooting the Thing achieves nothing. If you camp and hit it with the gun, what will the Thing do? Engage? No. It will run and you would have wasted your chance to use it to prevent it from running away in a clutch battle. Using it via camping would be retarded waste.

    "The ONLY way I can see this ever working is if the gun requires a long-ass time to lock on."

    Already mentioned no need to repeat my post.

    "And even then its pointless because if the thing escapes one time the gun is erased from history."

    Therefore shooting it needs great care and should only be used to finish the game.
    avatar
    Datasick
    Game Moderator
    Game Moderator

    Posts : 431
    Forum Points (FP) : 976
    Forum Rating (FR) : 12
    Join date : 2014-12-12
    Location : Everywhere

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Datasick on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:22 pm

    To begin with, how the hell can marines around also detect the Thing unless they are wearing the goggles themselves?

    It could be two things, the new alt + left click feature, or its just like before this update when a marine started shooting at something they themselves couldn't see.


    Sponsored content

    Re: Medkits and The Thing

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:16 am