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    Help with deception?

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    Proteo
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    Help with deception?

    Post by Proteo on Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:10 am

    Okay so I have an idea.
    What if instead of everyone being able to see every bodies dead body color, we have an item like the Wrench or something else become multi purposed.
    I know people don't value the wrench a whole lot, but maybe this would help.
    Okay so, the wrench allows whoever is carrying it to see the dead body color. The only other person that can see body color is the Thing.

    This could help with deception, wrongfully identifying a body when nobody else has a wrench or something like that. But we need an item that there are multiple of, otherwise it would be OP, I think. Nobody to counter Claim.

    Thoughts? Opinions?
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Rachyl on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:29 am

    I think Vic should definetly add more items!!! X-Ray scanner goggles, a gun that can shoot through the walls, and a fly-by-wire rocket launcher where u can control where the rocket goes. what do you guys think about that?
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Vicboy on Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:08 am

    Black corpse = burnt
    White corpse = consumed

    Item: DNA tester - Reveals the color to the player.

    Funny stuffs that could happen:
    Thing has DNA tester and frames a group member.
    Thing has DNA tester and lies about the color revealed (since it's his color)
    Marine has DNA tester and finds out it's the color standing beside him.

    It has potential, what do you think?
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Proteo on Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:28 pm

    Vicboy wrote:Black corpse = burnt
    White corpse = consumed

    Item: DNA tester - Reveals the color to the player.

    Funny stuffs that could happen:
    Thing has DNA tester and frames a group member.
    Thing has DNA tester and lies about the color revealed (since it's his color)
    Marine has DNA tester and finds out it's the color standing beside him.

    It has potential, what do you think?

    Even better. I dunno though, whoever has the DNA Tester is pretty powerful though. Would multiple ones work? Maybe just like 2 or 3?

    Or, should the bodies be gone after being burnt or consumed, but this be used for the process inbetween. So just for the corpses?
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Vicboy on Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:38 pm

    Powerful in terms of deception, yes. Isn't that addressing a problem?
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Proteo on Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:19 am

    Vicboy wrote:Powerful in terms of deception, yes. Isn't that addressing a problem?

    Yeah. I just don't know if it would be Over Powered if only a single marine had access. If a newbie picks it up and doesn't know what to do, or the thing, or another player who is just fucking around, it could really mess up a game.
    Especially if we really do end up taking away Control.

    Maybe just like two DNA testers? But let somebody pick both of them up like wrenches and that. I dunno, I'm surprised nobody else has commented yet XD
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Vicboy on Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:13 pm

    You could ask the noobs if they have the DNA tester.

    Keep in mind that the DNA tester only works with corpses, not detecting a live player if he's the Thing.

    Just conceptualizing though.
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Perplexate on Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:23 pm

    Well at some point we are going to have to implement a high-end tutorial.


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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Proteo on Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:18 am

    Vicboy wrote:You could ask the noobs if they have the DNA tester.

    Keep in mind that the DNA tester only works with corpses, not detecting a live player if he's the Thing.

    Just conceptualizing though.

    Yeah but, I find that a majority of new players don't even realize their inventory, let alone what their items are that they have and how to drop them.
    Which is incredibly surprising to me, but pretty accurate.

    Yeah, either a high end tutorial or interactive tutorial might help new people out a helluvalot.

    But I like the DNA tester only on corpses and not the Thing Very Happy

    Maybe white for consumed
    Black for Burned
    and Pink for still able to do one or the other?
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Probe on Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:38 am

    Vicboy wrote:Black corpse = burnt
    White corpse = consumed

    Item: DNA tester - Reveals the color to the player.

    Funny stuffs that could happen:
    Thing has DNA tester and frames a group member.
    Thing has DNA tester and lies about the color revealed (since it's his color)
    Marine has DNA tester and finds out it's the color standing beside him.

    It has potential, what do you think?
    Black Corpse is burnt, White is Consumed. Perfect.

    But question: Couldn't people just ask someone to drop the DNA Scanner to another person to double check a body? If they don't, kill them for not complying. Its really not that hard to work around the DNA Scanner 'deception' and just results in more tk. Not to mention it gives TKers a tool to use in convincing others to kill people, particularly noobs would be susceptible. 

    What if:

    The DNA tester can be used (indefinitely) on a body to reveal its status to all other players. However, upon the Thing using the DNA tester on a body, the Thing can either choose the color the body will reveal as, or the body will automatically select another color from a different dead body.

    This way, all players can find out what a dead body is but can still expect the Thing to occasionally fuck them over.

    You're criteria over there Vic, with the different scenarios that could result such as the marine finding out its the guy next to him, would still apply. However, this variation seems more polished. Corpses cannot always remain trusted if they were burned or consumed, adding another dynamic situation to the game. Notably, the chances are the Thing won't have the DNA scanner just simply because marines will usually find it first.

    This ends up resulting in giving Marine's a way to figure out who was burned or consumed, adding another detection role to the game while still allowing for the Thing to deceive. 

    What do you think?
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Vicboy on Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:57 am

    Your suggestion will add too much complexity to using the Thing. And complexity in the UI. Anyway, here are some counter arguments:

    1. Marines usually prioritize offensive items. I'm expecting DNA tester to be more of a burden of an item. If that's the case, whoever holds that item would emanate trust much like the wrench.

    2. Marines are lazy. Either too lazy to lead that tactic from the rest, or too lazy to drop the item. Go ahead and shoot the holder too, he might not even be the Thing, just dumb.

    3. More deception: Claim the marine is lying even when you really lied about the color. More effort for the Marines.
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Probe on Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:16 am

    Vicboy wrote:Your suggestion will add too much complexity to using the Thing. And complexity in the UI. Anyway, here are some counter arguments:

    1. Marines usually prioritize offensive items. I'm expecting DNA tester to be more of a burden of an item. If that's the case, whoever holds that item would emanate trust much like the wrench.

    2. Marines are lazy. Either too lazy to lead that tactic from the rest, or too lazy to drop the item. Go ahead and shoot the holder too, he might not even be the Thing, just dumb.

    3. More deception: Claim the marine is lying even when you really lied about the color. More effort for the Marines.
    1 is true. The DNA tester would probably not matter for better players because you can usually tell who it is anyway. The trust factor definitely is there.

    2 is also true. The majority of cases is that the guy is just dumb. Regardless, he's going to get shot dead for being dumb (and if hes a noob that sucks). 

    Still, tkers can use this to their advantage easily to convince people to kill others. What are admins going to do? Punish a guy for saying "Kill this person, kill that person". No, they won't because that's stupid. Dedicated tkers will constantly find ways to get people to kill others with the DNA Scanner. It is notable that the Tker won't always have the DNA Scanner though.

    Don't add my idea but I still think that the original idea of the DNA scanner needs some tweaking.
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Proteo on Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:53 am

    Tker's be TK'ing. It's the way of life.
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Shadow on Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:31 pm

    DNA tester room? Like in trouble in terrorist town....it can be like a building thing like comms, u go inside it and it's shows green for marine and red for thing, maybe draw back is that there is 50/100 chance it says that the thing is human, another thing n is that thou op, it can be destroyed really easy, like a regular marine could shoot it down, and it can't be repaired...Or it can be hacked by thing and the first person who goes inside is are as red...maybe?
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by zakhennahr on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:00 pm

    How to help deception:

    1. Place one, and only one "test kit" on the map that force-turns thing from marine to thing form (like medkit currently does), and allow thing to use medkits near other marines. The deception aspect of this game... it's gone. Every medkit is now a test for being the thing, so there's no point in trying to be deceptive.

    2. Make it viable for marines to be out solo. As an idea, give each marine every few minutes a personalized location quest (take this item that only you see from here to here). This works in more than one way to help deception, as well. Marines have a valid reason to be out solo, thing can pretend to be a marine returning from its personalized quest, and thing can lure helper marines to their doom ("Come help me with this item I have to grab that takes me 5 seconds to do so, I swear it's totally at the end of this rape room").

    Edit:

    3. Make molotovs do some actual damage to the buildings, that way the thing can effectively set a timer for a tower blowing up. Turn into a marine, enter a group, "I swear I'm not the thing", lights goes out. This has a built-in time limit of how long a molotov lasts, along with needing to fine-tune the damage you've dealt to a tower first.
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Proteo on Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:51 pm

    zakhennahr wrote:How to help deception:

    1. Place one, and only one "test kit" on the map that force-turns thing from marine to thing form (like medkit currently does), and allow thing to use medkits near other marines. The deception aspect of this game... it's gone. Every medkit is now a test for being the thing, so there's no point in trying to be deceptive.

    2. Make it viable for marines to be out solo. As an idea, give each marine every few minutes a personalized location quest (take this item that only you see from here to here). This works in more than one way to help deception, as well. Marines have a valid reason to be out solo, thing can pretend to be a marine returning from its personalized quest, and thing can lure helper marines to their doom ("Come help me with this item I have to grab that takes me 5 seconds to do so, I swear it's totally at the end of this rape room").

    Edit:

    3. Make molotovs do some actual damage to the buildings, that way the thing can effectively set a timer for a tower blowing up. Turn into a marine, enter a group, "I swear I'm not the thing", lights goes out. This has a built-in time limit of how long a molotov lasts, along with needing to fine-tune the damage you've dealt to a tower first.

    I especially like the molotov idea. Or grenade. Oh OH. What if, in order to detonate a building, you are required to have a moltov and a grenade. Those items combine into c4 or some shit, and that can be used to set an unstoppable timer of like what, 20seconds would be enough?
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    Re: Help with deception?

    Post by Probe on Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:29 am

    I feel like the thing should be capable of "overloading" a building, setting a timer (of up to like 1 minute) Then again, I can't see any of this giving a huge ass change. The molo thing would make sense though.


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