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    Revive the Ammo System?

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    Vicboy
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    Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Vicboy on Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:41 am

    Of course you don't remember the ammo system, lol.

    Anyway, adding an ammo system would mean a few things:

    1) Evasion is now a good option.
    2) Thing's current health regeneration is now OP.
    3) Attacking requires good timing (if Thing has an opportunity to regain health in some way.)
    4) More difficulty. (There's already plenty of game states like oxygen, energy, health, sight, EVAC timer, etc.)

    When adding the ammo system, consider a few things:

    1) Abundance of ammo.

    Too much and it'd be a useless addition to the game. Too little and game will be more unpredictable?

    2) Ammo Refilling System

    Should it recharge independently as if it were a solar powered energy weapon? Should there be ammo scattered around? Should there be several refilling facilities? Should they be able to break?

    What about... RELOADING (e.g. switching magazines)

    As a supplementary:
    Reloading isn't a big aspect of survival horror when you compare it to something like COD (hence the quick-switch to secondary weapon feature).

    As an alternative:
    This would also be interesting. Imagine if reloading took a long time.
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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Probe on Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:46 am

    Vicboy wrote:Of course you don't remember the ammo system, lol.

    Anyway, adding an ammo system would mean a few things:

    1) Evasion is now a good option.
    2) Thing's current health regeneration is now OP.
    3) Attacking requires good timing (if Thing has an opportunity to regain health in some way.)
    4) More difficulty. (There's already plenty of game states like oxygen, energy, health, sight, EVAC timer, etc.)

    When adding the ammo system, consider a few things:

    1) Abundance of ammo.

    Too much and it'd be a useless addition to the game. Too little and game will be more unpredictable?

    2) Ammo Refilling System

    Should it recharge independently as if it were a solar powered energy weapon? Should there be ammo scattered around? Should there be several refilling facilities? Should they be able to break?

    What about... RELOADING (e.g. switching magazines)

    As a supplementary:
    Reloading isn't a big aspect of survival horror when you compare it to something like COD (hence the quick-switch to secondary weapon feature).

    As an alternative:
    This would also be interesting. Imagine if reloading took a long time.
    Disregard the Thing's health, it can be nerfed to provide balance.

    Learning Curve goes up which is something we really don't need tbh, though ammo still sounds cool.

    I say we need to make ammo medium, something that can affect the game but not something that makes the entire game.

    No reloading, reloading would increase learning curve and make the skill ceiling even HIGHER.

    Just imo
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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Vicboy on Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:08 am

    Another thing to consider when adding ammo is:

    Team Killing. It would be very costly to spend ammo on another marine at the current design of TKing.

    Should we make attacks more painful to mitigate its current costliness? Should we keep it costly?

    Should players be able to risk killing another without much cost?

    Probe wrote:
    Disregard the Thing's health, it can be nerfed to provide balance.

    Learning Curve goes up which is something we really don't need tbh, though ammo still sounds cool.

    I say we need to make ammo medium, something that can affect the game but not something that makes the entire game.

    No reloading, reloading would increase learning curve and make the skill ceiling even HIGHER.

    Just imo

    As long as Thing has health regeneration, this is quite an important element to factor.

    Learning curve may not go up so much if they immediately understand how to refill ammo.

    Scale your "medium ammo". How much is that in terms of the Thing's health?

    Reloading could be a way to refill the ammo, rather than heading to a refilling facility.
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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Perplexate on Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:03 am

    I think that getting off small bursts is more in the style of Marines rather than fewer, stronger attacks. (Also because the gameplay is continuous running, so getting in as many small bursts as possible is important).

    Presuming we don't have ammo caches on a marines person, one full Ammo load should be enough to take out 2/3rds of the things health presuming every possible bullet was used.

    As of refilling systems, I think having 1-2 reloading stations per map is ample. The reason for having stations is it would give an imperative for marines to move, and camping buildings would be near impossible, as with the high regen of the Thing they wouldn't be able to sustain staying there before they run out of Ammo.

    *Other Issues*

    -I think a very weak, but basic combat knife attack for when Ammo is gone should be introduced.

    -No re-ammo stations should be put on the ship.

    -Flame thrower should not have a refueling station, but should be increased in power.

    -It should take approx. 20-30 seconds of continuous shooting for all ammo to be lost.


    That's most of my little tidbits on it. I think it's a good idea and will be a good replacement for Oxygen.


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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Vicboy on Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:40 am

    More consequences of the Ammo System:

    Less Marines = even harder/impossible.

    How would one Marine handle The Thing if he'd have to spend all his ammo just to get the Thing at low health? He'd have to refill which makes him vulnerable.

    Same applies to two Marines.

    Perplexate wrote:I think that getting off small bursts is more in the style of Marines rather than fewer, stronger attacks. (Also because the gameplay is continuous running, so getting in as many small bursts as possible is important).

    Presuming we don't have ammo caches on a marines person, one full Ammo load should be enough to take out 2/3rds of the things health presuming every possible bullet was used.

    As of refilling systems, I think having 1-2 reloading stations per map is ample. The reason for having stations is it would give an imperative for marines to move, and camping buildings would be near impossible, as with the high regen of the Thing they wouldn't be able to sustain staying there before they run out of Ammo.

    *Other Issues*

    -I think a very weak, but basic combat knife attack for when Ammo is gone should be introduced.

    -No re-ammo stations should be put on the ship.

    -Flame thrower should not have a refueling station, but should be increased in power.

    -It should take approx. 20-30 seconds of continuous shooting for all ammo to be lost.


    That's most of my little tidbits on it. I think it's a good idea and will be a good replacement for Oxygen.

    If the style is small burst, then the Thing's HP regen will fuck them up.

    Good point. If anything will force them to move, it would be the lack of ammo. Ammo stations would become as important as Comms Tower.

    Knife? What? We don't have a knife animation. What's the point of knifing the Thing? You'll just die. Knifing teammates is nearly as futile.

    No ammo station on the ship, we can consider that.

    Flamethrower needs the refueling station the most. It's an item that could be grabbed by the Thing. It is randomly spawned, so Marines have no absolute control on whether the flamethrower could be used to their advantage. It's kind of like giving a 50/50 chance that the flamethrower would even spawn. Might as well keep the Flamethrower refueling station. (Note to self, Refueling Station should ping nearby players where the Flamethrower is, if not equipped by another player)


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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by willuwontu on Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:47 am

    For ammo system, it should scale on the number of marines to the amount given.

    I think that 35 attacks should be enough base, for full games. They have the option of picking up mags to expand their attacks.

    There would be reloading between mags, but it would be automatic.

    would take 3 sec to fully refill at the ammo station.
    would not replace oxy.
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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Phantom01 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:39 am

    Personally I don't like an ammo system much. Part of the reason I like the thing so much is because of its casual, arcadey, feel you get from ignoring mechanics like ammo. Plus most games in arcade sometimes do worse then better when you add more complicated game play mechanics such as this.

    Just a thought.


    Last edited by Phantom01 on Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Probe on Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:42 am

    Ammo would not be a good replacement for oxygen. Why?

    If we added refueling stations, then all we get is marines walking back and forth from building to building or end up having them camp one until they walk to the next destroyed building. That was one of my main issues with an oxygen building. I didn't want people continuously walking between them. 


    However, we still want goals for the marines, so I have no idea how you want to balance that into the equation. 


    On another note, like Willu said, it would not replace oxygen. The oxygen change will not prevent camping, probably. All it will do is make everything smaller scaled and make the oxygen system a little smarter. Smaller scaled = more opportunity for things like deception and focusing on individuals when it comes to development.


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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Probe on Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:52 am

    Phantom01 wrote:Personally I don't like an ammo system much. Part of the reason I like he thing so much is because of its casual, arcadey, feel you get from ignoring mechanics like ammo. Plus most games in arcade sometimes do worse then better when you add more complicated game play mechanics such as this.

    Just a thought.
    That's true. I feel like an ammo system would kind of bear the game down in terms of how much other stuff there is to worry about. You've already got noobs dying left and right because they don't know how to stim or lock doors. Is it worth it to add ammo just to result in them asking "Why isn't my gun working?" 

    We already have a shit ton of issues with complexity - People are really dumb and can't even work out the inventory. Every single noob I come across does not realize that the flamethrower requires fuel. What makes ammo different?

    Whoever suggested a basic knife attack, I think it was perp, just no. That just adds on something flashy for no real ingame benefit other than more buttons to mash.
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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Proteo on Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:24 am

    I think it'd make it too complex for new players and they wouldn't spend the time to learn to play with limited ammo.
    Just bump the oxygen stuff so fewer marines can group, and theres honestly not that much TK'ing anymore. Not enough to actually be worried about
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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Probe on Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:31 am

    Proteo wrote:I think it'd make it too complex for new players and they wouldn't spend the time to learn to play with limited ammo.
    Just bump the oxygen stuff so fewer marines can group, and theres honestly not that much TK'ing anymore. Not enough to actually be worried about
    Exactly. 

    Rly just makes me sad that noobs can't figure out how to lock a door...
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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Perplexate on Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:22 am

    The lack of a decent & forced tutorial is why. I think this wouldn't be too complex if everything were explained properly to new guys.


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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by ReeferFist on Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:36 pm

    Perplexate wrote:The lack of a decent & forced tutorial is why. I think this wouldn't be too complex if everything were explained properly to new guys.

    if the game is to ____ to enjoy. then it prly isn't an enjoyable game.

    it makes since.



    fix it!!!!


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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Probe on Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:41 pm

    Perplexate wrote:The lack of a decent & forced tutorial is why. I think this wouldn't be too complex if everything were explained properly to new guys.
    Yah, we really need a new system for new players. Though I think we should wait because a proper progression system makes it extremely easy to have it seamlessly blend in with the game with the UI instead of feeling crammed down your throat.
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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Datasick on Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:42 am

    Vicboy wrote:
    2) Ammo Refilling System

    Should it recharge independently as if it were a solar powered energy weapon? Should there be ammo scattered around? Should there be several refilling facilities? Should they be able to break?

    I think you should reconsider my suggestion about interact-able map objects, I saw that Probe added shelf doodads to give the maps a little umfh. Maybe ammo can be in these found in these perhaps? Or even a armory room, as I recall seeing in the previous forums.

    Vicboy wrote:This would also be interesting. Imagine if reloading took a long time.

    I love how you can basically copy and paste your data from the fire squad map you made lol.

    2 things I like about slow reloading. Marine mobbing will now have more of a gap and not to mention new fields of gameplay combining with the items unlike before were there was less features. Secondly it may just make micro more of key battle tactic if there will be more around, I don't know if you guys are like me when it comes to that though... Not many are willing to give the marines flamethrowers and items to help someone they are trying to kill xD, but... If there is going to be long reloading, then should the thing get a nerf as a result?
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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Perplexate on Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:58 am

    Datasick wrote: but... If there is going to be long reloading, then should the thing get a nerf as a result?

    Probe: *Eternally Screaming*


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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Probe on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:00 am

    Datasick wrote:
    Vicboy wrote:
    2) Ammo Refilling System

    Should it recharge independently as if it were a solar powered energy weapon? Should there be ammo scattered around? Should there be several refilling facilities? Should they be able to break?

    I think you should reconsider my suggestion about interact-able map objects, I saw that Probe added shelf doodads to give the maps a little umfh. Maybe ammo can be in these found in these perhaps? Or even a armory room, as I recall seeing in the previous forums.

    Vicboy wrote:This would also be interesting. Imagine if reloading took a long time.

    I love how you can basically copy and paste your data from the fire squad map you made lol.

    2 things I like about slow reloading. Marine mobbing will now have more of a gap and not to mention new fields of gameplay combining with the items unlike before were there was less features. Secondly it may just make micro more of key battle tactic if there will be more around, I don't know if you guys are like me when it comes to that though... Not many are willing to give the marines flamethrowers and items to help someone they are trying to kill xD, but... If there is going to be long reloading, then should the thing get a nerf as a result?
    Interactive map is definitely something I want to move towards. I can see there being an armoury room or whatever, but the issue is someone could just go in and take all the items and leave, which would be shitty.

    Fun Fact: The shelves provide something the Thing can actually burrow charge through as long as all doors blocking the path to the location are killed, believe it or not.


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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Probe on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:01 am

    Perplexate wrote:
    Datasick wrote: but... If there is going to be long reloading, then should the thing get a nerf as a result?

    Probe: *Eternally Screaming*
    *Eternally Agreeing*
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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by zakhennahr on Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:33 pm

    I like the idea of reloading a clip using a hotkey (up to a maximum of 3 or something, then you need to pass by the armory to restock on how many clips you're carrying). The system that Alien Swarm uses could be a very great way of doing it (Press R to reload, takes 4 seconds, hit R again around the 2 second mark to quick-reload if you have the timing skill for it, but if you get the timing wrong the reload now takes up to 6 seconds). Implementing it would be a bitch though, especially with some of the keyboard input lag I've seen SC2 have when using the editor to check if a key is pressed.
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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by ReeferFist on Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:59 pm

    no thats stupid. the revive system should only use 1 med pack.

    zak you make no since


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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Perplexate on Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:47 pm

    ReeferFist wrote:no thats stupid. the revive system should only use 1 med pack.

    zak you make no since

    wut if boolets can reviive u/?


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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Shadow on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:33 am

    What If You usee grammar? :/


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    Re: Revive the Ammo System?

    Post by Datasick on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:52 am



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